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BreadCaster
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Oooh! You know what would be good: something to show us the limitations and possibilities of the mode 8 engine.
Like, I can remember that there was a function for moving the points that defined sectors, but I think it was heavily bugged - but I've always
wondered, could you theoretically use that to make doors that swing open ala Dukey 3Ds build engine? Or, if you were able to manipulate basic points,
then pushing about crates to make some of those early environmental puzzles seen in early 3d shooter games?
Would it be possible, theoretically speaking, to use a large map for the floor texture of a sector - so it doesn't repeat - and then dynamically
update that with say, a basic spotlighting or oval shadow effect? So a player could carry around a lantern, for instance. (then again, using coloured
distance fogging slightly flickering in and out might be better for that!)
Just thinking of various possibilities my 15 year old mind couldn't comprehend 
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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Yes you can do that (all of it) check out the set* commands in the help, you can do quite funky things with it, you can move sectors about quite a
lot. I started with a zone with a couple of aquare sectors within and moved those around with quite nice results.
Definitely have a play with the examples
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BreadCaster
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Hmmm... I was thinking about the example of dynamic spotlighting that i mentioned: what would be easier, in theory? Making a large graphic to set as
the floor texture (possibly by loading a tile graphic and placing that tile several times over a large graphic created in memory, as to not have to
make a huge MAP file for the floor texture of each room!) and then updating the grid references with lightened and darkened textures as a light source
moves around...
... or splitting every sector up into several smaller boxes, and then using a function to alter the texture of the adjacent squares & the square
where the light source is?
I ask this mostly in theory, as I'm not sure this is something I'd realistically attempt, but I just have a feeling that the second one may cause some
problems as regards bugs/glitches with Mode8, and you're likely to be the person who knows best as to how glitchy mode 8 currently is. (I seem to
recall that in the original DIV 2, if you stood right at the join between two sectors, sometimes the whole world would glitch and disappear for a
second - at other times, it just plain crashed the program!)
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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the black glitch is still there, but the crashes are not.
You could definitely make a world with a huge grid and dynamic light that, I'm not sure how else you could light it.
Longer term of course mode8 would be replaced with something a little less ancient and restrictive.
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BreadCaster
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Yeah, that's probably a good long term strategy but tbh the game idea i have in mind would probably work a bit better with an old engine like this -
the theme is archaic and to do with religious orders and caverns so it'd fit an archaic, blockier engine otherwise I wouldn't be thinking of using it! Haha.
However I did want to make one request as regards the .wld editor - would it be please possible to make the maps zoomable? so you can scroll in and
scroll out, maybe with the plus and minus key if not the mouse scroll wheel - because otherwise I don't know how anyone would be able to make
something as finely detailed as the default wld_view map! Haha 
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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the wld editor has always had zoom!
Z/X (same as map (graphic) editor) zoom in and out
F1/F2 same thing
right click/ drag scrolls around.
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BreadCaster
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mikey you are amazing :D
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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Time to go grab the latest nightly and test it then right?
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BreadCaster
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Already been doing so, been finding the map editor a little laborious though, as there's no real sense of scale - i made a wonderful cave area, all
decked out with animating pools of water, then found it was so tiny that i could barely walk around in it, and to make it larger i'd have to
seperately drag every vertex outwards. just wish there was something for scale :p
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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BreadCaster
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Right, here's a little test I did. Animated floor sector, working door, with a sound effect - see if you can guess where i nicked it from, haha. :p
Not very well coded but it's solid enough and could be reworked if needs be.
I'm uploading this part as an example, partially because this has a vaguely similar feel to the kind of game i'd want to make (though the movement
would need work first - head bob, footstep sound effects, jumping, different camera heights depending on step down/lower sectors etc), but also
because there are mode 8 bugs aplenty in this.
Lots of walking through walls and ending up with just vertical slices of the WLD showing with no walls rendering at all. I'm going to guess this is
because of the two sectors by the door, but I'm not really sure how else this could be done without having to literally press the camera up against
the wall, which isn't a particularly polished way to navigate a 3D world :p
Attachment: mode8example.rar (149kB)
This file has been downloaded 5641 times
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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That''s actually really cool
I didn't experience any black sections though, I wonder whether that's specific to the platform you used to develop it on.
I uploaded a web build of it. I did manage to get stuck inside the door which was fun (Did it deliberately to try to get the black screen bug)
http://js.mikedx.co.uk/bcm8.html
For the wld scale thing that's a good point.. i wonder if there's any merit in adding a scale option to either start mode8 or load_wld
Or whether its even worth doing at all, it's still a bit of a limited 3D mode and I'm sure we can do better.
[Edited on 14-6-2016 by MikeDX]
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BreadCaster
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Personally, I think if you want to "go further" then something like "mode 8 plus" would be a good option. Rendering 3d models in raytraced spaces, the
ability to do sloped floors like in the build engine, and flat polys to add environmental details like hanging vines to areas. A full 3D mode would be
a lot of work from the ground up and I don't think it's fair for anyone to hold their breath on it just yet :p
As for the door test, it was developed on windows 8 and I just had the bug while playing it in browser on Mac OSX as well. I'm surprised you were able
to get stuck in the door considering that I added a if m8_sector<>door-sector-and-the-two-sectors-right-outside-the-door code :p
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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Weird. Well, there's room for improvement that's for sure.
Dom Cook is a bit of a 3D whizz, I'm going to get him to help me with the future 3D stuff - we are already in talks of a modeV (or 5 if you like)
which is vector 3D space, and that's quite exciting for me. I'm not a huge 3D fan myself and never really have been - although if we had the ability
to do things like super mario 64... that would change my mind.
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BreadCaster
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Next stage for that is surely getting shading between the vertexes, even if it's just flat with no textures, just colours. Then texture mapping, and
then eventually loading models. If there were a way to interpret a standard 3d format into vertexes, so the program essentially reads and converts the
model to a DIV compatible format in the memory, then you're laughing (that is until you get to incorporating animations :P )
Personally - and this is just from what I've seen - I think the wireframe 3D is a great step towards full 3D, but it really isn't enough to sell the
language on it's own.It does need additional stages to make it work in the long run - collisions, texture mapping, diffuse and specular shading,
distance fogging, static and dynamic lighting, the loading and animation of models in a standardised format (there's no point models being in some
kind of custom format like a .DXM (dx model) if people can't use preexisting programs to make models for it, unless someone's going to release a full
3D modeling tool made in DIVDX). And last but not least: shadows. From what I understand, shadows in video games are generally rendered using a third
party engine - not developed in house - and they can be hard as balls to program.
A raycasting engine is fine because people see that as basically being like the DOOM or Build engine, they know what to expect. There are a lot of
games made with those engines, and there's enough nostalgia for it to be of some value. People have fond memories of Heretic, DOOM, Shadow Warrior,
Rise of the Triad, and while they do look crap by todays standards, there's enough nostalgia for it to be a draw to a few people, more I'd say than
just wireframe 3D without the progression to a full 3D engine. Just my two cents :p
[Edited on 14-6-2016 by BreadCaster]
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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BreadCaster
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeDX  |
For the wld scale thing that's a good point.. i wonder if there's any merit in adding a scale option to either start mode8 or load_wld
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Personally, i'd like to see a selection box (click & drag, rts style) for selecting vertices, and a copy paste tool for sectors from other
wlds/the same wlds (stripping that sector of its textures in the process, of course).
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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Well lets not forget Ant had ModeA a long time ago, and that worked well, and another version of the dll that could load quake md2 models, so it's all
doable. Sadly the latter is mostly asm..
It's going to be a different ballgame once we go 32bit colour anyway, and since DIV is now in active development, we can be sure the future is bright
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MikeDX
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here you go Dan, I used your demo as a test of the android build
Works a treat
One thing to try with your wall problem, set yourself a radius value (and maybe a height) value in your camera process. It should prevent you from
being able to go "into the wall"
[Edited on 14-6-2016 by MikeDX]
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BreadCaster
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Haha, wish I'd known that before now - literally just finished doing some more work on it! Oh well.
Nice to see it working on android
Here's an updated version, with more sound, a basic "puzzle" if you can call it that and a few changes. See if you can figure out how to get to the
stone door
I won't be doing anything else with Mode8 until the 32 bit colour is in, but this is the kind of feel of the thing I wanted to create. Something
between Quake 1 and Dungeon Keeper, lots of sacrificial alters and flickering candles with sector by sector psudo-lighting
(had to upload to sendspace - this is a whole 7.8 MEGABYTES, holy hell batman - https://www.sendspace.com/file/uu7avh )
~*~ Princess of Pies and Pastries ~*~
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MikeDX
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Have I got some silly attachment limit here? I've upped that to 20mb now instead of 2, so you can add it here now if you want.
I'm going to go give it a play...
Ah it's huge because you're using wavs. Get oggs in there dude. DIV supports those nicely
Played it, works very nicely. I'm currently working on the packager for div but I'll make a new android build soon and upload it
[Edited on 14-6-2016 by MikeDX]
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MikeDX
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I've compiled and uploaded this to the js site:
http://js.mikedx.co.uk/cavern.html
Most ports have squashed down to about 2mb, which is nice
however there are some serious glitches I need to look into - and thats both an annoyance and useful...
[Edited on 17-6-2016 by MikeDX]
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