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Author: Subject: DIV needs YOUR help!
MikeDX
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[*] posted on 23-4-2016 at 02:26 AM


Of course, the volunteering is purely tongue in cheek

Anyway, DIV *does* offer something bennu doesnt - a good IDE, export to various formats...

Well, i say "good" - it's getting better.
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[*] posted on 23-4-2016 at 08:15 AM


True but like I said before, unless Div can offer Photoshop grade image manipulation (layers, layer effects, textures, filters, a great range of selection tools etc) and Goldwave level sound manipulation (flanger, pitch shift, fade in/out, mixing, reverb etc) then using the DivDX IDE would be a downgrade. The exporting to various formats is a cool feature, although I can't test on that many other things else as I only own a Mac, PC a pretty old android.



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[*] posted on 5-5-2016 at 07:26 AM


Quote: Originally posted by RKSoft  
First, i'm with you and you know that, Mike!

We should not look at the older programmers, only. We need new and young peoples for DIV. And, we need a final release for compiling our own games for the different systems. And i think, the IDE is outdated. Ie., i use Notepad++ for HTML, CSS, PHP and Pawn.

Also, we need:

- an editor for FPG- and Map-files that comes with todays features
- MP3 and OGG Support
- XInput support (Windows) for playstation and XBox controllers (most of my friends do play with one of these controllers)
- a fresh young design for DIV Arena - the current style, we love it, but it is from an aera that the web was young (the website is the window to DIV!)
- a forum software with todays features (ie: when i do a post it will not move to the latest post)
- finally, compiling our own programms for releasing

.


I back up RKSoft's ideas.

Nowadays with the console trend and even steamOS, playing with a controller as become a norm (just like the wasd+mouse as for the FPS). So that is one thing.

The forum and website can be off putting by today's standards, and like he said its a window into the div scene, and first impressions are important (like the first impression of seeing the div1 or 2 cd+book in a store a years back)
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[*] posted on 5-5-2016 at 01:36 PM


Quote: Originally posted by nullzero  

Nowadays with the console trend and even steamOS, playing with a controller as become a norm (just like the wasd+mouse as for the FPS). So that is one thing.


I agree, and full gamepad support is coming.

Quote: Originally posted by nullzero  


The forum and website can be off putting by today's standards, and like he said its a window into the div scene, and first impressions are important (like the first impression of seeing the div1 or 2 cd+book in a store a years back)


Well, if this is really the case, we are screwed. The website part of div-arena is about as good as it's going to get, however the forum really is an echo of 2005.

So, if anyone wants to submit a new design / html / javascript / css for the main site + forum, be my guest, because sadly what you see on the homepage and the pages beneath (not the forum) are about the limit of my ability. If a responsive, mvc framework backed bootstrap / jquery driven site isnt modern then please show me what I should be using and doing to make it more so.

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[*] posted on 8-5-2016 at 07:29 PM


Quote: Originally posted by MikeDX  

Quote: Originally posted by nullzero  


The forum and website can be off putting by today's standards, and like he said its a window into the div scene, and first impressions are important (like the first impression of seeing the div1 or 2 cd+book in a store a years back)


Well, if this is really the case, we are screwed. The website part of div-arena is about as good as it's going to get, however the forum really is an echo of 2005.

So, if anyone wants to submit a new design / html / javascript / css for the main site + forum, be my guest, because sadly what you see on the homepage and the pages beneath (not the forum) are about the limit of my ability.


The thing is... the div-arena.co.uk seems a good community page, it has focus on the news/blog part, many links, integrated forum, and so on. It definitely works.

But... as in "the DIV's future" I (personally) think it doesn't function well as a landing page for a new dev looking for a platform to design his/her games on. Its not a technical issue. But it may impact how you want to "sell" the product.

Some examples:

EXAMPLE 1 - Phaser - HTML5 game framework

Here we get a one page with a big bright picture, stating what it is (game framework), the price (free) and the target platforms (desktop and mobile), and download link. Then we have the features section stating some of the things it can do well, then a the news, where many of the links are tutorials/examples, then getting started steps and finally some games showcase.

EXAMPLE 2 - Love 2D - lua open source game engine

Here they start with a tagline describing what it is (game framework), laguange it is based on (lua), price (free open source), targets (win, mac, linux, iOs, android). Then there are the download link focusing on different platforms available. Then open source description and community links. Then some code examples of lua syntax highlighted (adding images, sound and text) and some game showcases.

DISCUSSION

So, they actually don't work as a community site, but instead focus on grabbing the attention of a future dev. They state clearly its a game framework, the price model, programming base, and target platforms. They give some inicial examples of what it can do, the tools it includes, hopefully some tutorials or section to get started, and some nice selection of games made with it.

Now the div-arena.co.uk site has it all, but these info for a new landing dev are not clearly stated at the beginning of the site in a pretty manner.

Now I wouldn't like to have the site to be replaced with a pretty one page advertising land page. But maybe some thing like that could be anexed? Like having a small paragraph beneath the DIV ARENA - Making games since 1996! - saying in two lines what it is, what it targets and a link getting started. Or in the "Welcome Stranger" box, a link for a features included page, or "hey new dev, look here what this framework can do for you!"

So maybe all it would be needed was a separate page (under the same domain), where it would be described easily what div is, how can it help, what are its main strenghts, target platforms, price model, links for recomended tutorials and a getting started steps with pictures :cool:

BOTTOM LINE

Divarena works as a good community site, but If someone on reddit ask "hey please I'm looking for a platform to learn and develop a game one" and I want to give a link for DIV, there should be a pretty page with at explained for first time users focusing on what it is, what it can do, and some tutorial and examples. This would be the link I would give, (like div.arena.co.uk/features) instead of the root page of div.arena.co.uk

This doesn't tear up all the other work you had to implement this site and forum. As I'm very much grateful for you to bring DIV back :D

Quote: Originally posted by MikeDX  

If a responsive, mvc framework backed bootstrap / jquery driven site isnt modern then please show me what I should be using and doing to make it more so.



Oh ant neat, didn't notice it was reactive, sorry maybe I'm too judging the book for its cover :spin:
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[*] posted on 14-11-2016 at 05:10 PM


Let me start saluting all community and thanking this unexpected DIV 3. This was a very special item from my childhood, my dad bought it to me when I was 11 years old and it was mind-blowing. Daniel Navarro put a lot of care on it and to me, it still the most complete and comfy Kit for game develpment. Sure, it's aged and limited, but this restrictions may work as soil for a particular style (i.e. GameBoy 4-colour [greys] palette)
If you stick to basis and adapt your assets, DIV can make games with enough quality to be sold in stores on the 90s.
Can't post at FB, twitter or related because I haven't account and not willing to, but surely I can spread the word in my usual sites like Assembler-games, Resident Evil Modding Forums, etc.
We'll keep in touch.
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[*] posted on 14-11-2016 at 05:34 PM


Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  
Let me start saluting all community and thanking this unexpected DIV 3. This was a very special item from my childhood, my dad bought it to me when I was 11 years old and it was mind-blowing. Daniel Navarro put a lot of care on it and to me, it still the most complete and comfy Kit for game develpment. Sure, it's aged and limited, but this restrictions may work as soil for a particular style (i.e. GameBoy 4-colour [greys] palette)
If you stick to basis and adapt your assets, DIV can make games with enough quality to be sold in stores on the 90s.
Can't post at FB, twitter or related because I haven't account and not willing to, but surely I can spread the word in my usual sites like Assembler-games, Resident Evil Modding Forums, etc.
We'll keep in touch.


The real deal breaker for me is the 256 colours. I enjoy a lot of 2D games these days, which was not really the case back when I made a lot in DIV (most of those abhorrant games I attempted to make looked pretty awful haha)... I'm happy enough making a 2D game with prerendered 3D graphics for now but in order to get the kind of lighting, shades, tones etc to render a world in any sort of vaguely semi-realistic fashion, DivDX will need at least 16 bit colour :/




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[*] posted on 14-11-2016 at 10:32 PM


Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

The real deal breaker for me is the 256 colours. I enjoy a lot of 2D games these days, which was not really the case back when I made a lot in DIV (most of those abhorrant games I attempted to make looked pretty awful haha)... I'm happy enough making a 2D game with prerendered 3D graphics for now but in order to get the kind of lighting, shades, tones etc to render a world in any sort of vaguely semi-realistic fashion, DivDX will need at least 16 bit colour :/

Oh, I remember and have to agree with you... back then I was like "Im gonna create a Resident Evil or Tomb Raider clone, yep all by myself and it will be great" finally i only did a couple of shooters (copying the book example) and was also my first approach to modding (changin Tokenkai sprites, enhancing gore fx... god ol'days :smilegrin:)
I got to agree too with the point of gettin 16bit colour, this little feature means increase DIV games like from NES to SNES/early PSX 2D games. This would be awesome, but let me repeat again that something good can come from less 256 colours (DOS Another World, i.e. 16 colours)
I always found annoying, even back at 98, the MODE8 restriction to get a total "top-down" camera angle. That's another little change that would greatly increase the possibilities, like doing floating platforms which is impossible ATM because sectors can only be raised from ground or ceiling.
I'm sure that many of us also agree that we don't want DIV to be Unity, UDK... just like NetYaroze, something capable to render PSX lowpoly graphics would make my day.
EDIT: DIV physics needs an update too... but the actual port is pure love.

[Edited on 14-11-2016 by wasabi]
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[*] posted on 15-11-2016 at 09:35 AM


Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

I got to agree too with the point of gettin 16bit colour, this little feature means increase DIV games like from NES to SNES/early PSX 2D games. This would be awesome, but let me repeat again that something good can come from less 256 colours (DOS Another World, i.e. 16 colours)

Hello wasabi,

As says in another thread, graphics support 16/32bits is in development, this will not be a problem.

Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

I always found annoying, even back at 98, the MODE8 restriction to get a total "top-down" camera angle. That's another little change that would greatly increase the possibilities, like doing floating platforms which is impossible ATM because sectors can only be raised from ground or ceiling.

Well, actually the original mode8 has some limitations it is true, however, we noticed that Hammer has only included some functionality available from the real internal engine used for mode8, we must finish to examine all the features it has and see if we can add more, in any case, anyway DivDX, in addition to mode8 will have a real 3D engine more modern (or maybe more than one, who knows).

Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

I'm sure that many of us also agree that we don't want DIV to be Unity, UDK... just like NetYaroze, something capable to render PSX lowpoly graphics would make my day.

Really the DIV goal is not to be like Unity, but to be able to support the majority of the game engine features of the 21st century.

Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

EDIT: DIV physics needs an update too... but the actual port is pure love.

DIV does not really have any physics engine, this will be fully included once that there is support for floating point data and other features.
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[*] posted on 15-11-2016 at 02:54 PM


Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

I always found annoying, even back at 98, the MODE8 restriction to get a total "top-down" camera angle. That's another little change that would greatly increase the possibilities, like doing floating platforms which is impossible ATM because sectors can only be raised from ground or ceiling.


Theoretically, you could make a mode 8 platformer provided that the platforms were sort of floating in a void... :p

For example, look at the quick thing I sketched up. Red lines are one sector, black lines are another sector, and the numbers in them are the floor heights. Green points are vertices.

Now, imagine that the black sector is fully textured - floor and walls, only the ceiling is left blank. But for the red sector - the walls, floor, ceiling, all of it has no texture, so it'll just show the background graphic of the WLD file. The red sector will hide the lower parts of the walls of the black sector, making it appear floating - voila, a "floating" platform. ;)

You could then make it move around using the get_point_m8 and set_point_m8 commands on all the vertices (green dots).

Granted, this will have the issue of hiding anything else behind it, so this would literally be for platforms floating totally in void. If anything like a lower platform or a structure or something were behind the red sector, it too would be hidden.

example.jpg - 15kB

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by BreadCaster]




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[*] posted on 15-11-2016 at 05:32 PM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

As says in another thread, graphics support 16/32bits is in development, this will not be a problem.

Thanks for bring me those good news, CicTec. I must passed over it.

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

...original mode8...has only included some functionality available from the real internal engine. we must finish to examine all the features it has and see if we can add more, in any case, anyway DivDX, in addition to mode8 will have a real 3D engine more modern (or maybe more than one, who knows).

This is just amazing. So maybe m8 engine still have hidden features (i always missed the draw distance thing). I'll soon upload screenshots of my work with DIV 3D editor for share and learn purposes.

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

DIV does not really have any physics engine, this will be fully included once that there is support for floating point data and other features.

Yes, you're right. I'm spanish and when I'm too excited can't control my written expression.

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

For example, look at the quick thing I sketched up... voila, a "floating" platform. ;)

Hey, that's was a nice idea for real! I practiced it a little and it have many possibilities. i.e. you can make 3d rooms with few walls blank and put the camera in the void, getting something like a diorama or the rooms seen in Clock Tower (PSX). Also, it come handy to make a sort of overworld screen like old-school rpgs.

Thanks a lot for sharing your technique, that's not nowadays common.:)
EDIT: Yes, "inspired" by Snatcher's Neo-Kobe.

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by wasabi]
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[*] posted on 15-11-2016 at 06:17 PM


Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  
Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

As says in another thread, graphics support 16/32bits is in development, this will not be a problem.

Thanks for bring me those good news, CicTec. I must passed over it.

No problem. :)

Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

...original mode8...has only included some functionality available from the real internal engine. we must finish to examine all the features it has and see if we can add more, in any case, anyway DivDX, in addition to mode8 will have a real 3D engine more modern (or maybe more than one, who knows).

This is just amazing. So maybe m8 engine still have hidden features (i always missed the draw distance thing). I'll soon upload screenshots of my work with DIV 3D editor for share and learn purposes.

Yes, we do not know why, but several features have been eliminated/ reduced, for example mode8 use a unique room with a 2048 height, but the internal engine supports rooms above rooms and I think without limits.

Very interesting, we wait to see this project in mode8. :)

Quote: Originally posted by wasabi  

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

DIV does not really have any physics engine, this will be fully included once that there is support for floating point data and other features.

Yes, you're right. I'm spanish and when I'm too excited can't control my written expression.

No problem, If you have difficulty writing in English, you can also do it in spanish.

Animo con tu proyecto. ;)

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by CicTec]
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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 01:35 AM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

No problem, If you have difficulty writing in English, you can also do it in spanish.

Animo con tu proyecto. ;)

Gracias! lo tendré en cuenta! Y perdona por la confusion... la foto de este hilo era una prueba de la idea que dio BreadCaster. Mi proyecto lo puedes ver en el hilo de screenshots.

"The pic I posted in this thread it's not from any project, just for test purposes to see BreadCaster's idea possibilities".
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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 10:06 AM


De nada, no te preocupes, no pasa nada, mirare tu proyecto en la seccion screenshot, animo con ello. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem, do not worry, I'll see your project in the screenshots section, good job. :)
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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 05:51 PM


Here's my attempt :)

Also attempted something using a similar technique to make mode 8 floating platforms you can walk under, in an attempt to create things like bus shelters, the appearance of an overhead walkway, a garage... notice that all these areas are outdoors however, because any sprites or sectors behind the negative space used to make the "above the platform" space will just disappear :p attached an image of that as well.

By the way, CicTec/Mikey - is there any way to modify the background graphic of the .WLD file on the fly? So we could possibly make animating backgrounds, etc, that sort of thing.

Floating platforms example.png - 98kBbus shelter.png - 164kB




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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 06:41 PM


Hello BreadCaster,

I see that you can only set a fixed background currently, however I think we can add support for change in realtime with animation easily.
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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 08:13 PM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  
Hello BreadCaster,

I see that you can only set a fixed background currently, however I think we can add support for change in realtime with animation easily.


Hurray! Thanks CicTec =)




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[*] posted on 16-11-2016 at 11:06 PM


Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  
Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  
Hello BreadCaster,

I see that you can only set a fixed background currently, however I think we can add support for change in realtime with animation easily.


Hurray! Thanks CicTec =)

No problem, I am looking at the code and should be easy to add support, maybe a new function to set the graph of background in a dynamic way.

You may in the meantime perform a test please ?
would be simple:
- Create a graph black to insert in the FPG that is used for the background.
- set using the editor the previous chart as background for the WLD.
- Use the following code in your example animation background:
Code:
background_anim = N; loop map_put(fpgwld_id, background_graph, background_anim, 0, 0); background_anim++; if(background_anim > M) background_anim = N; end frame; end

where:
- fpgwld_id is the fpg used for the texture of the world.
- background_graph is the code of the graph black used for the background.
- background_anim is the code of the graph of the animation of the background.
- N is the code of the initial graph of the animation of the background (of your choice).
- M is the code of the final graph of the animation of the background (of your choice).

It is a simple test to see if the engine supports the automatic update of the graph used for the background.

Thanks in advance.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 12:03 AM


Nope, just tried that quick test and it didn't work. I know that the background_graph was animating though, because I had the code you wrote up there ^^^^ in a process, set its graph to background_graph and made sure it was on screen - and sure enough, there it was, running the animation - but the mode 8 WLD wasn't updating.



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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 12:12 AM


Mmmm, probably creates and uses a copy static inner from the graph indicated in WLD, i check.

anyway, the code of the example could have a slow performance, it would be ideal to have a function (or more) native, any suggestion is welcome.

Many thanks again to the test.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 12:15 AM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  
Mmmm, probably creates and uses a copy static inner from the graph indicated in WLD, i check.

anyway, the code of the example could have a slow performance, it would be ideal to have a function (or more) native, any suggestion is welcome.

Many thanks again to the test.


That's okay!

I mean, a mode8_setbackground(graph) function would be good, that changes the graphic and then auto-refreshes. It would only need to refresh one file in the .FPG as it's not possible to display two background on one WLD file as far as I know :)

Thanks for looking into this! As for me I'm still playing around with making effects for creating interesting WLDs so I may use them in my planned game, coming much later once 32 bit colour is in :p




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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 12:47 AM


The name i think is appropriate, parameters could be 2, with the following prototype: MODE8_SET_BACKGROUND(INT graph_first, INT graph_last), where "graph_first" would be the first graph of the animation, "graph_last" the last graph of the animation, if both have the same value you will have a static background as now.

The function would be so called out of the loop, and any change to the animation graphics would be updated in real time.

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  
It would only need to refresh one file in the .FPG as it's not possible to display two background on one WLD file as far as I know :)

Currently only supports a background, which utility see to have two backgrounds ?

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

Thanks for looking into this! As for me I'm still playing around with making effects for creating interesting WLDs so I may use them in my planned game, coming much later once 32 bit colour is in :p

Thanks to you, I am working to add support 16/32bits also for the Mode8, but requires time, the internal motor is strongly linked to the single mode 8bit, requires rewriting in many points.

If later you have a WLD of example and textures to 32bits, would be very useful for testing the new support.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 12:55 AM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  
The name i think is appropriate, parameters could be 2, with the following prototype: MODE8_SET_BACKGROUND(INT graph_first, INT graph_last), where "graph_first" would be the first graph of the animation, "graph_last" the last graph of the animation, if both have the same value you will have a static background as now.

The function would be so called out of the loop, and any change to the animation graphics would be updated in real time..


This is fine, but it would need to have a third parameter I think - anim_speed, so you can choose how fast to cycle between these graphs :D

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  
It would only need to refresh one file in the .FPG as it's not possible to display two background on one WLD file as far as I know :)

Currently only supports a background, which utility see to have two backgrounds ?


What I meant was that there isn't a way to have different graphics for different parts of the 3d world background :) sorry for the confusion!

Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

Thanks for looking into this! As for me I'm still playing around with making effects for creating interesting WLDs so I may use them in my planned game, coming much later once 32 bit colour is in :p

Thanks to you, I am working to add support 16/32bits also for the Mode8, but requires time, the internal motor is strongly linked to the single mode 8bit, requires rewriting in many points.

If later you have a WLD of example and textures to 32bits, would be very useful for testing the new support.


Later yes, definitely :) I can understand that porting DivDX to 32 bit colour must be a very big task!!




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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 01:18 AM


Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

This is fine, but it would need to have a third parameter I think - anim_speed, so you can choose how fast to cycle between these graphs :D

The animation speed should be linked to the FPS set by the program, how would you set it, with real-time?

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

What I meant was that there isn't a way to have different graphics for different parts of the 3d world background :) sorry for the confusion!

Ah, like a tile-mode, but this would create problems to the previous function, should re-evaluate the parameters to use.

Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

Later yes, definitely :) I can understand that porting DivDX to 32 bit colour must be a very big task!!

Well really no, the graphics engine to use is already very advanced, the biggest task will update the core (compiler, runtime, IDE) to support all the new features.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2016 at 01:34 AM


Quote: Originally posted by CicTec  
Quote: Originally posted by BreadCaster  

This is fine, but it would need to have a third parameter I think - anim_speed, so you can choose how fast to cycle between these graphs :D

The animation speed should be linked to the FPS set by the program, how would you set it, with real-time?


I would say that you should set anim_speed to the amount of frames to go between changing to the next graphic in the range.

Usually when I animate something and I want to slow down the animation, I do the following:

Private
anim_frame=1;
anim_c;
anim_speed=3;

...

anim_c++;
graph=anim_frame;
if (anim_c>anim_speed);
anim_frame++;
anim_c=0;
end

(That example above is for rolling through animation with no resetting/looping the animation of course ;) )




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